Curse

Shadow_Avenger · Aug 07, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

It is not a myth, unless you already have said skills. So, in essence, every new person going through the game for the first,second, or third (ect) time is going through that process, whether they realize it or not. Most people who are interested about being competitive or learning different styles will go through that process. People that dont care or are only testing the water will not go through that process.

I dont see any dates attached to the last time each guild fought or when they fought a guild of similar rank, nor do i see any times and dates when they are forced to participate within a match or lose standing.

You simply do not need all the skills for each class, if you actually understand the idea behind the skill system, you should know that individual class skills complement your primary / secondary class choice, a vast majority are only useful for the correct secondary / primary combo.
You auto unlock skills for the primary / secondary in game through PvE / quests without having to hunt them down. This will unlock 85%+ of skills. In the context of the original point it was. You do not need 100% of skills.

As for the top 1000 guilds that info was taken from the GW website guild ladder, also that is not as upto date as the ingame info, but is the best and most accurate you are likely to actually get a hold of. I also know that when I took a outing into GvG the guild I joined wasn't ranked within the top 1000, but after 15 matches we where in the top 500, the numbers and ranking will change reasonable fast, but you do not have to PvP for ever to get ranked in the top 1000, perhaps in the top 100. And you certainly do not need all skills to get into the top 500, I used a template w/m and changed the monk skills with one elite monk I hade unlocked.
As for the similar rank, the actually GvG system is set up so that you can only fight people of a similar rank.

Phades · Aug 07, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Should the need arise to play a different class combo occurs, then your theory flies out the window. Also, its the last 15% that is the most time consuming and many of which are also the more powerful skills.

Automatch, issue rated and unrated challenges is what i see when i being the guild battle process. Automatch should find fights of similar rank, but the others are more specific and none of them can occur if the teams are not activly waiting or attempting to gvg themselves.

Considering how few matches it took for you to invoke that kind of change within the ladder is very indicative that the gvg feature is being largely unused. If every guild was activly attempting to gvg battle regularly, such changes in the midsection to the upper eschelon would not be as apperant. This would represent a large body of inactive or dead guilds for the ladder, not neccacarially a preference towards one form of entertainment or another.

Maltare · Aug 07, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

no

no it doesn't

wtf

why do you people keep saying that over and over

i love pve way more than pvp, though i do partake in gvg when the guild requires it, and the 4v4 random arena on the occasion

i like pvp, it's fun, but i like pve more

i have logged nearly five hundred hours doing nothing more than pve because i enjoy it

stop speaking in absolutes

Haha, sorry I upset you so much. But though in less exaggerated form. It may not be 90%, but this game is still crap for PvE. Try out just 1 or 2 other RPG games that have high ratings for thier PvE gameplay and you'll find out that I'm correct VERY quickly.

Owen · Aug 07, 2005, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I didn't read this whole thread but I read alot of it and what i'll say is that GW is simply not the game most of you need to be playing. You are playing GW because it has no monthly fee and you are expecting of it things that you normally have to pay for. GW is not a single player game that you can play through online (like the Diablo Series or Baldur's Gate) and it's not a huge persistant world game in which you carefully build the perfect character. GW is free to play because it is created in the spirit of Counter-Strike, Tribes, and Quake III. This is a pickup-and-play run-and-gun style game in which you are along for the ride as the world changes around you and not the other way around.

The reason WoW and EQ2 cost money to play is because people like you have expectations like you do. Do i agree with some of what you say? Sure. Do i play the game for what it is? Yes. At this point though I feel lucky that they even continue to tweak the game on the level that they do and I'll keep playing it until it loses my interest.

Critique the game all you want, it' your right since you bought it, but now that you've bought it it's just like Counter-Strike... they aren't gonna change it and when you've played it out and it's not fun anymore you can stop playing.

I don't grind, i play all missions and quests, and when I got to Droknar's on the regular schedule I had all the materials for my armor and plenty of cash to buy it with. I have never attempted to farm and I don't horde rare items I'll never use. I help other players do quests and I help keep them away from scammers. In general I just play the game and I enjoy it. To each his own I suppose.

Aniewiel · Aug 08, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Deleted posts that were WAY off topic and ones that were only here to snipe at someone else.

I agree with Soul Shaker: Most of these posts are on topic and make this thread a must-read for ANet. Bogging it down with single word responses and 1,000 word responses to -those- makes it too easy to ignore. Keep to topic but if you DO want to argue with someone, please take it to PMs.

Thanks.

Aug 08, 2005, 12:22 AM // 00:22

How is this a must read topic by Anet, but my topic wasnt?

Aniewiel · Aug 08, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

How is this a must read topic by Anet, but my topic wasnt?

Don't be childish. *swats BlackAce with a rolled up newspaper*

I never said yours wasn't but I tend not to read as many of the PvP threads as I'm not terribly knowledgeable about them. I read enough to weed out the flames and off topic posts, that's it. And, given the rather...sarcastic nature of your "fix PvE" thread I just was in over my head. But, by all means: If my opinion of must reads is SO critical, let me know and I'll be sure to post something to that effect at the end of that thread.

Sheesh.

Back to topic, PLEASE.

Aug 08, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

meh, you didnt take the troll bait. Im going back to sleep.

Fox Reeveheart · Aug 08, 2005, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I really like this game, i really do, but if there was a new rpg no monthly fee game that was more into pve than pvp and you could actually hope to get stuff at max level, more than likely I would play that other than gw, I do feel that there isnt much to do after lvl 20 other than ascension armor.

Heck, nothing even truly remarkable happens when you ascend, first time I did, I was thinking like "oh man, maybe i'll have like a glow or something or get an awesome weapon or armor"... and nothing happened, just said you ascended and got some exp. =\ there needs to be more rewards for high level and especially ascending rather than just stupid exp, which most people are near or at lvl 20 by the time they do, heck i was 19 when i was ascended.

Soul Shaker · Aug 08, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Just outta curiosity, why did my post get deleted?

Saerden · Aug 08, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

I agree with those people who claim that GW is a game about PvP. It may have been different during the betas, where the difficulty of the PvE part actually WAS the gameplay. Now they removed the difficulty, leaving only the tedium. I failed at thunderhead at least 5 times, and both times i finished it, it took 90mins and a medicore group. The biggest secret to success: talk to the king and go afk. If the king cant die, the first part can be done while distracted. My second team had 7 rangers with traps, that should tell you something... With the playerskill based gameplay gone, PvE has not much to offer. Dungeon Siege II >>> GW PvE atm. Yes, DS II is mindless hack and slash, but so is GW right now - but despite the poor graphics, the DS II world (the demo at least) feels more alive then GW ever did. Now try a "real" rpg like Gothic.

The problem is: If GW PvP is so much better then the medicore PvE part (and i never saw the "real" PvE part, only the dumbed down release version), why force 500h of PvE farming grind on the community?

See, i came over here to try the "different / unique" pve and maybe pvp. Instead i got a MMORPG wannabe with the pvp part sealed away behind mountains of grind.

Kakumei · Aug 08, 2005, 08:10 AM // 08:10

i love it when people complain about nearly all aspects of a game but still post a lot on forums dedicated to the game

not just above post

everywhere on these forums people complain and bitch and moan about each and every little thing

Shadow_Avenger · Aug 08, 2005, 09:53 AM // 09:53

There are actually alot of valid points in this topic, and there are actually positive solutions offered also, admittedly it is a long topic and is easy to miss them.
The bigger the topic the easier it is to skip posts and miss the point

Denny Pace · Aug 08, 2005, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Overall good thread, sprinkled with a wide variety of opinions. Guess I'll join in.

1) PvE - I got my money's worth out of this game. Where do I spend my post-completion time in PvE these days? Helping other people with missions and quests, many of them even donating one single XP to my cache. Why? Because it's fun helping people out (for free, mind you). I can distinctly recall how I would have felt as a level 12 having one or two level 20's in my party.

If it takes you 100-200 hours to complete the entire PvE portion of the game, you have no legitimate gripe. You *have* gotten your full $50 out of the game.

2) PvP - this is out of whack, for sure. Anyone who's played 10 hours of PvP knows that there are certain builds that are *clearly* superior (W/M, M/W, certain air elementalist builds, etc). Fringe characters, like W/N, can play PvP, but your success is limited. There are reasons you see the same 10-20 teams winning favor; it's because they have people who have mastered the elite builds. Bet you don't see more than one or two fringe character builds among all the top 20 teams.

There are also some obvious flaws with some skills being way too powerful. They've all been mentioned before, so I'll pass on typing it all out again. I can only hope that this gets corrected along with some (yes, I'll say it) nerfing of certain character combinations.

Oh, and don't get me started on all the Spirits.... this is a burlesqued example, but you guys know what I'm talking about...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...7&postcount=40

3) Faction - nice idea, poorly implemented. Why, when I'm using my PvE character with a tweaked skill bar in PvP, can't I redeem faction for, say, a Superior Rune of Absorption for THAT character? No, you can't - faction can only be used for NEW PvP-only characters. That's just absurd. I don't want to create a new character just to take advantage of my faction-based goodness. I want to play with him who got me there...

Also, it's much easier to get faction-based goodness than earn it through PvE, in many cases. Take for example that Rune of Superior Absorption. 2,000 faction and it's yours. Now, try to farm 80 plat to buy one. I guarantee you it'll take longer to farm the gold than to get the faction points. Way out of balance here, folks.

4) Economy - it's broken, Anet has basically capitulated on that one, and is in the process of fixing it through better and more frequent drops. I'll anticipate that we will see drops fix the supply and demand issues we're seeing at the Merchants (no black dye available, ridiculous prices for many items due to people hoarding popular items, etc.) I'm not worried about this, as it's a short-term problem.

I have a little over 300 hours into this game. It paid for itself a long time ago. That being said, there are two new areas forthcoming for me to explore, and I've spent limited time in FoW, and no time in UW. I still have a bonus mission or two to complete. There's still plenty of stuff out there for me to do. No game is perfect, and GW is no exception. However, in my long history of gaming that dates back to the first year of the Commodore 64, I have never seen a game developer deliver like the GW team has done. Frequent (painless) updates to the game, including massive content updates, new ideas (faction), fighting the good fight against botting/cheating, etc., attention paid to the community, and a real attention to detail when it comes to gameplay changes. No, they don't get it all right. I can't imagine they ever will. But they get a lot right, and generally move the game in a positive direction.

It's been a fun ride so far. I look forward to the future in Guild Wars.

mrpo · Aug 08, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Denny,

Couldnt have put it better myself

Po

ManaCraft · Aug 08, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Pace

If it takes you 100-200 hours to complete the entire PvE portion of the game, you have no legitimate gripe. You *have* gotten your full $50 out of the game.

Even though I do believe GW is an amazing bargain of a game, I can tell you right now that if "we've given you so and so many hours of gameplay, so shut up and be happy" was A.Net's official policy, they would lose a whole lot of customers, including myself. Personally I measure the monetary worth of a game in how much fun I'm having while playing it, not how long it takes me to complete it.

Plus, the ideas and suggestions (and yes, also the "gripes") presented in this thread pertain not only to the current basic GW package, but also to any expansions that might come in the future. If A.Net wants people to invest in those as well, they will take the problems that those people have with the game seriously, moneys worth or no. I for one don't want the same issues we face now to stick around for the upcoming expansion, and the next one, and the next one after that.

Although to their defense, A.Net is indeed making a valiant effort to maintain the game and to keep in touch with the community. This, more than anything, is where I feel I've definitely gotten my moneys worth.

ManaCraft

kuji · Aug 11, 2005, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

It wasn't direct directly at you, but if you want to take it personal thats your choice.
Personally I don't think there is much wrong with PvP, if a flavour of the month gets too powerful, it gets balanced, otherwise other players find a way to beat it.
The Top ranked guilds don't change a great deal as in any sport, the to 20 players don't change dramatically from year to year, such is the way of things.
The point I was making is that the Pure PvP'ers, more to the point the PvP'ers without patients who beleive they are the best of the best, who beleive that the game just isn't right unless a they can beat everyone all the time, or that noboby will every beat their awesome stratergies need to get of their high horses, because they are simple living in a dream world. There is no need for their often derogatory comments toward A.net and the general state of the game.
In virtually every PvE thread I have read here, there is atleast 1 PvP'er who merely flames, and degrades the otherwise positive input from the community by going off topic to whine about x skill which has very little to do with ideas behind the OP.

dont get me wrong pve could be livened up a bit but to be honest its really not that big of a deal. pve is good atm pvp is good as well it seems fine ATM in a mounth or to of no updates etc etc it would get boring but arena have already sead updates of new areas etc etc are coming

Rieselle · Aug 11, 2005, 01:15 PM // 13:15

ANet need to think hard about how games can achieve longevity without a constant stream of new content. If they want to be a success, it should be their #1 priority. They need to look at what makes games like CS, Diablo2, Soul Calibur 2, Nethack, etc, the sort of game that people play again and again, without getting bored for a long time.

It's a shame that there's a bunch of current content that's sub-standard and probably won't be worth fixing, and it's a shame that they've now saddled themselves with this story, (maybe the expansions can be set in a different time period, or a different continent?!). But the underlying technology is pretty good, and it would be an even greater shame if ANet folded and this grand experiment ends as a failure.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 11, 2005, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

Haha, sorry I upset you so much. But though in less exaggerated form. It may not be 90%, but this game is still crap for PvE. Try out just 1 or 2 other RPG games that have high ratings for thier PvE gameplay and you'll find out that I'm correct VERY quickly.

I've played cRPG's for about 20 years, so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that you're talking complete bullshit.

There are cRPG's with better PvE than GW, for instance Planescape: Torment, KOTOR, and Gothic2, but there's many more with much WORSE PvE. Neverwinter Nights, Dungeonsiege, Everquest2, Pool of Radiance 2, Dungeon Lords, Baldurs Gate 1, and Lionheart to name but a few.

Also, while there are cRPGs with better PvE than GW, they're all (with the possible exception of WoW which I've not played because the graphics are simply too ugly for me) much shorter. Even Gothic2 and PS:T don't last more than perhaps 50 hours.

The fact of the matter is that the PvE in GW is quite good. That people eventually tire of a game which takes about 100+ hours to play through is hardly surprising, and definitely not proof that the PvE sucks.

The PvP of GW is completely uninteresting to me, as it reminds me of Magic the Gathering. If I want PvP I'll instead fire up an FPS.

Saerden · Aug 11, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

snip

So your opinion against ours. BG I < GW . Yes sure. Pool of Radiance formatted your HDD after an uninstall and Dungeon lords... come on, am i supposed to take this list serious? well to be honest, i can fire up an shareware site and find 100 games that are worse then guild wars.
Whats worse is that i can name at least 4 games that have been written by just one guy, and they offer better pve then GW... (Avernum, Geneforge series)

At this point one cant continue to argue. You have the right to consider GW to be a great game.

Everyone can write a game that takes you 100h to complete. What matters is the fun/tedium ratio.

[We/] I have listed many points here and in the thread on TGH to explain why GW Release is a poor game at best (and lots of cool ways to fix it!). It does not support skillbased gameplay (lack of difficulty - "hard" missions are frustrating, not hard.), and does not offer enough content for mindless hack and slash. Take what you want, but before the new areas are online, GW is BELOW average on my list. And the EXTREMELY FUN pvp (according to every person on this board who seems to have a grip on game mechanics) is still buried beneath mountains of grind. You can defend it all you want. You can fight UAS all you want. But at the end of the day, every top player will have all skills unlocked. EVERYTHING. The only difference to UAS: pushing a button vs "playing the game" for 600h. No way to argue that.